Thank you @Robert McClenon for offering to help to make wikipedia articles more comprehensive I am happy that you are able to provide some of your time for this issue, in the Neith article I would like to keep the following statement in the lead of the article: "was an early Libyan deity worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians. She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located). Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC." along with all of its relevant sources, this is due to sources I provided from UNESCO library, World History Encyclopedia which their publications are recommended by many educational institutions including:
and several archeologists and egyptologists and multiple other sources that confirm the statement to be kept. Potymkin (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
接下來的步驟是我會請每位編輯提出修訂版的開頭段落，說明他們認為條目的開場應該如何寫。由於問題集中在她的起源，任何關於她起源的說法都必須清楚地引用來源。換句話說，如果你提議她是利比亞起源，則需要有來源明確指出她是利比亞起源。接下來我們可以討論來源的可靠性問題，但首先我們需要比較各位提出的開頭段落修訂版草稿。
Robert McClenon (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
thank you for your consideration @Robert McClenon, the following is my suggested lead paragraph where sources show her clear libyan origin down to the book and the page:
Neith/ˈniː.ɪθ/ (通用希臘語：Νηΐθ, a borrowing of the Demotic form 埃及語：nt, likely originally to have been nrt "the terrifying one"; also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit)[1] was an early Libyan deity [2][3][4][5][6][7] worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians.[6][8][9] She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt[10][2][a][11], where her oracle was located).[12][9] Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC.[b][13][14][15] She was said to be the creator and governor of the universe and the inventor of birth.[1] She was the goddess of the cosmos, fate, wisdom, water, rivers, mothers, childbirth, hunting, weaving, and, originally, war.[16]Potymkin (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
This is imperfect, but I think it better reflects the relative weight given by the sources. They don't usually spend much time on her possible Libyan origins and pay more attention to other aspects of Neith, so our article lead should do the same. A. Parrot (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Neith/ˈniː.ɪθ/ (通用希臘語：Νηΐθ, a borrowing of the Demotic form 埃及語：nt, also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit) was an ancient Egyptian deity. She was connected with warfare, as indicated by her emblem of two crossed bows, and with motherhood, as shown by texts that call her the mother of particular deities, such as the sun god Ra and the crocodile god Sobek. As a mother goddess, she was sometimes said to be the creator of the world. She also had a presence in funerary religion, and this aspect of her character grew over time: she became one of the four goddesses who protected the coffin and internal organs of the deceased.[17]
Neith is one of the earliest Egyptian deities to appear in the archaeological record; the earliest signs of her worship date to the Naqada II period (约 3600–3350 BC).[18][19] Her main cult center was the city of Sais in Lower Egypt, near the western edge of the Nile Delta, and some Egyptologists have suggested that she originated among the Libyan peoples who lived nearby.[20][21] She was the most important goddess in the Early Dynastic Period (约 3100–2686 BC) and had a significant shrine at the capital, Memphis. In subsequent eras she lost her preeminence to other goddesses, such as Hathor, but she remained important, particularly during the Twenty-sixth Dynasty (664–525 BC), when Sais was Egypt's capital. She was worshipped in many temples during the Greek and Roman periods of Egyptian history, most significantly Esna in Upper Egypt, and the Greeks identified her with their goddess Athena.[22]
I have looked over the draft versions of the lede sentence. The first conflict between the two versions has to do with the nationality of Neith, in the first sentence. I suggest that the first sentence be written to compromise between calling her Egyptian and calling her Libyan. I suggest that the opening sentence be rewritten to something like:
Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in ancient Egypt beginning in Predynastic Egypt and in Libya..
The remainder of the lede paragraph can then be reworked to follow and expand on
Are the editors willing to work with a revised version of the article that begins by referring to Neitth as a North African goddess?
Robert McClenon (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon I am very happy with your suggestion calling her a north african goddess and expanding on her origins later on in the article. I suggest instead of saying
Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in Predynastic Egypt and in Ancient Libya as far back as 3200 BC.
I think my suggestion of calling her Egyptian-Libyan goddess is not bad either, since its more specific about north africa but it doesn't cause problem to owing to one origin of hers or another.
I hope you find my comment helpful
My problem with that is that is that Neith is specifically known, and usually referred to in the sources, as an Egyptian goddess. The Libyan peoples of this period did not use writing, so the evidence about Neith's worship comes almost entirely from Egyptian sources. It's not clear if she was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta at all periods, or if she was only worshipped by those Libyans who periodically settled in the Delta and adopted Egyptian customs. I don't see anything in Potymkin's sources that contradicts the latter possibility.
That doesn't mean she wasn't a Libyan deity, only that we don't know enough to say how extensive her presence in Libya was. Her presence in Egypt is the presence we can see in the evidence, and therefore it's the emphasis we find in the sources. A. Parrot (talk) 04:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue @Robert McClenon you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.
All in all my arguing party is bent on putting Neith as an Egyptian deity despite Ancient Egyptians themselves and UNESCO and all other archeologists calling her a Libyan deity. therefore the concession Egyptian-Libyan is more than a huge step on my part to resolve the issue that is clearly closed which is that the population concerned with the deity called her libyan and this is well confirmed by UNESCO and World History Encyclopedia which is sourced by institutuions like oxford university and other show the clear Libyan Origins of the deity. Potymkin (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
^'Western Delta was considered 'Ament(the west)' = 'Libya' by ancient egyptians
^Scholar Richard H. Wilkinson comments on this:
"Neith is one of the most ancient deities known from Egypt. There is ample evidence that she was one of the most important deities of the prehistoric and Early Dynastic periods and, impressively, her veneration persisted to the very end of the pharaonic age. Her character was complex as her mythology continued to grow over this great span of time and, although many early myths of the goddess are undoubtably lost to us, the picture we are able to recover is still one of a powerful deity whose roles encompassed aspects of this life and the beyond"
^ 2.02.1Lesko, Barbara S. The great goddesses of Egypt. Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press. 1999. ISBN 978-0-8061-3202-0. Hermann Kees describes the northwestern part of the delta as being, at the beginning of history, inhabited primarily by Libyans and points out that during the Old Kingdom Neith was characterized by Egyptians as Neith from Libya
^Lesko, Barbara S. The great goddesses of Egypt. Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press. 1999: 58. ISBN 978-0-8061-3202-0. the Libyan Neith is her ka
^Hollis, Susan T. Five Egyptian goddesses: their possible beginnings, actions, and relationships in the third millennium BCE. Bloomsbury Egyptology. London: Bloomsbury Academic. 2019. ISBN 978-1-4742-3425-2. About Neith : "It is also commonly thought that her origins lie in Libya to the west"
^The Complete Gods And Goddesses Of Ancient Egypt. : 32,97,291,369 （English）. "Neith the patroness of the Libyans" Page 97 "the Libyan population of the delta was invaded during the 5th dynasty and elements of the Libyan captive local population of the Nile Delta being taken was portrayed in Ancient Egyptian Papyrus" page 231 "Sais the city is the culture centre of the worship of the goddess Neith" Page 369 引文格式1维护：未识别语文类型 (link)
^ 6.06.1Camps, G. Athéna. Encyclopédie berbère. 1989-01-01, (7): 1011–1013. ISSN 1015-7344. doi:10.4000/encyclopedieberbere.1211（法语）. Il faut citer en premier lieu la déesse égypto-libyque Nît, très ancienne mais particulièrement adorée durant l’époque saïte, au moment où la Basse-Egypte est soumise à une forte influence libyenne et où règne une dynastie de même origine. Nît已忽略未知参数|trans-quote= (帮助)
^Mark, Joshua J. Neith. World History Encyclopedia. [2024-08-01]（英语）. Neith may have originally been a fertility deity corresponding to the goddess Tanit who was later worshipped in North Africa at Carthage
^Libyco-Berber relations with ancient Egypt: the Tehenu in Egyptian records. unesdoc.unesco.org. [2024-08-03]. The temple of Sais, in the western delta, the chief centre of Libyan influence in Egypt, bore the name of 'House of the king of Lower Egypt'. The chief goddess of this temple was Neith ('the terrible with her bows and arrows') and she was 'living in the west'. The Libyans of north-west Egypt, especially in Sais, tattooed the emblem of Neith upon their arms. It seems that Sais was the residence of a Libyan king of the delta at a certain time. The origin of the uraeus, the royal serpent of the Pharaohs, is said to be traced to an early Libyan king of the delta, as shown from the reliefs discovered in Sahure's pyramid-temple at Abusir bearing the drawing of four Libyan chiefs wearing on their brows this royal emblem. It is worth noting that the Tehenu was the principal Libyan tribe who used to infiltrate into Egypt before the Libyan invasions, which will be dealt with later.
^The Grand Egyptian Museum. web.archive.org. 2021-10-25 [2024-08-18]. a toponym of Libya or Western Delta
^Wilkinson, Richard H. (2003). The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson. pp. 156–157
^Hollis, Susan Tower (2020). Five Egyptian Goddesses: Their Possible Beginnings, Actions, and Relationships in the Third Millennium BCE. Bloomsbury Academic. pp. 8–9
^Hendrickx, Stan (1996). "Two Protodynastic Objects in Brussels and the Origin of the Bilobate Cult-Sign of Neith". The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology (82). p. 39
^Lesko, Barbara S. (1999) The Great Goddesses of Egypt. University of Oklahoma Press. p. 47
^Hollis, Susan Tower (2020). Five Egyptian Goddesses: Their Possible Beginnings, Actions, and Relationships in the Third Millennium BCE. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 20
^Wilkinson, Richard H. (2003). The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson. pp. 158–159
Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue, Robert McClenon, you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.
I don't understand. Please reread DRN Rule A.3.1, which says: Comment on content, not contributors. … The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, not to complain about other editors. I am not assessing complaints about other editors, because I am trying to find a way around any impasse. So, yes, I am focusing on finding a solution to the issue. If either editor wishes to withdraw from moderated dispute resolution, they may do so, because it is voluntary. However, any editor should read the boomerang essay before filing a report at a conduct forum.
I have suggested that the lede sentence describe Neith as a North African goddess who was worshiped in Egypt and Libya. The body of the article can discuss how scholars differ as to where her worship originated.
Are there any alternate suggestions for how to move forward?
Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
The key question for me is: is there an RS that says Neith was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta, not just Egyptianized Libyans living in it? If there is, I'd be entirely willing to describe her as an "Egyptian and Libyan" deity, regardless of where she may have originated. A. Parrot (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
There are at least two possible areas of content issues. The first is what the lede sentence should say. The second is what should be in the body of the article. The lede should summarize the most important points as stated by reliable sources, and any disagreements or uncertainties should either also be summarized in the lede, or should be avoided, so that details can be explored in the body of the article. If I understand correctly, the main issue in dispute is the lede. I think that this is a case where we can avoid making contentious statements in the lede. Does anyone disagree that she was a North African goddess? If there is any disagreement as to her origin, is there any need to raise that disagreement in the lede, as opposed to discussing it in the body of the article?
I am inviting each editor to provide their own second proposed version of the lede sentence to see if we can find something to agree on. I have proposed what I think should be a compromise, but would like to see any other proposals.
Are there any issues about what to say in the body of the article?
Robert McClenon (talk) 21:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
I believe that the suggestion Neith is a north African goddess is an acceptable way of putting her origins, but please to take the time to reflect on the suggestion Egyptian-Libyan as an alternative to North African, my intentions as well as my counterpart's I believe are to make wikipedia articles as less ambiguous as possible and reflecting on it further. it seems we are stuck on whether attributing Neith's origins to Libya, or the Libyan population of Sais. My counterpart's argument likes to call her Egyptian per her origins in Ancient Kemet is not misleading but simply ignores the information provided from my sources that both egyptologists and ancient egyptians consider Sais which was not yet part of Kemet as Libya and they referred to the place as Libya, calling her egyptian takes away from the contributions of the Libyans which I find unnecessary especially when both ancient Egyptians referred to her as "Libyan Neith" and Egyptologists talk extensively of her Libyan origins.
the issue is most certainly settled when greek historians such as Hesiod, Appolodorus and Also herodotus who travelled to Ancient egypt also refer to Athena and Neith's origins from Libya, that which is born from Lake tritonis in North africa which is goddess of the libyans as goddess of wisedom, warfare and weaving.
-Neith is portrayed wearing a shuttle on her head as the goddess of weaving from Libya or wearing the Libyan feather on her head or both. the Libyan feather in ancient egypt is the symbol in reference for Libyans (people) and Libya.
-Ancient egyptians refer to Neith as Libyan Neith and goddess of the West
-Greeks Refer to Neith as Libyan
-Greeks refer to Athena as Neith as Also Libyan
-UNESCO confirms her Libyan origins
-Egyptologists refer to her as Libyan and also talk of her Libyan origins extensively. the inscription 'Libyan Neith in her Ka' (Ka = Soul) is used in multiple egyptologist articles.
-World History encyclopedia affirms Libyan Origins
therefore its undoubtable that Neith is Libyan in origin.
the egyptians however understood this very well and they themselves made an Egyptian variation of Neith that had Egyptian instead of Libyan characteristics and they called this new goddess Nut. I accept Nut the variation of Neith that is Egyptian made, But Neith herself is Libyan par excellence !
Neith's Appearance: Neith is portrayed as a regal and powerful goddess, with an elegant and imposing stature. Her skin might have a golden or sun-kissed tone, reflecting the desert environment of Libya.
Libyan Feather Headdress: Neith wears a tall, feathered headdress characteristic of Libyan iconography. The feathers are elongated and vibrant, with intricate patterns and details that symbolize the culture's connection to nature and the divine. The feathers may be depicted in colors such as gold, green, and blue, representing fertility, life, and the sky.
Hieroglyphs: Surrounding Neith, hieroglyphs are engraved or painted onto the headdress or her garments. These symbols represent war, protection, wisdom, and weaving—elements associated with Neith's divine role. The hieroglyphs are delicate yet prominent, ensuring they are a focal point of the imagery.
Traditional Garb: Neith is dressed in flowing garments made of linen, adorned with intricate patterns that blend Egyptian and Libyan designs. The fabric is rich in texture and color, with decorative elements that emphasize her divine status.
Symbols of Power: Neith holds a scepter or ankh, symbols of power and life, further reinforcing her status as a goddess of both war and wisdom.
This visual representation merges the cultural aspects of both Egypt and Libya, showcasing Neith as a goddess honored in both traditions.
Potymkin (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
It's trivially true that Neith was a North African goddess, because Egypt and Libya are both in North Africa, but North Africa is a lot bigger than Egypt and Libya, so that level of generality is unhelpful. Any other encyclopedia would call her "an Egyptian goddess"—that is where she was undeniably worshipped and where the overwhelming majority of the evidence is from.
Throughout this dispute, I have been open to compromise on the wording if if I see either of two things: a source that clearly indicates that a Libyan origin for Neith is the consensus view in the field of Egyptology; or a source establishing that Neith was worshipped by Libyans in Libya, not Egypt. I have not seen either. (The assertion above that Sais was considered to be part of Libya at some point in Egyptian history is not sourced. I have no doubt that SAis was a point of contact between the two cultures, like the First Cataract region was a point of contact between Egyptian and Nubian culture, but I don't think that is enough to justify calling Neith Libyan.) A. Parrot (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
It appears that one editor wants to describe Neith as a Libyan goddess, and another editor wants to describe her as an Egyptian goddess. Is that correct?
An article about a goddess who was worshiped two thousand years ago or six thousand years ago is a historical article, and should be based on reliable historical sources. It is at this time more important how her origin has been described by twentieth-century scholars than by ancient scholars. It is true that the ancient sources were Egyptian and characterized her as Egyptian because the ancient written records are Egyptian. What do modern scholars say her origin was? I am now asking each editor to identify two reliable historical sources that support their view as to the origin of Neith.
Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon thank you for the follow up on Neith's origins.
Publications on the certainty of the Libyan origins of Neith are so numerous that the already provided sources of UNESCO and World History Encyclopedia have adopted it without question, indeed it is extremely important to show that 20th century and 21st century scholars have now agreed on her Libyan origins as a known fact, here, on top of the previously given sources, some more of the most well known and well cited publications on Neith (in English):
2020: Here the authors from this publication in 2020 exploring [1] Lindsey Jackson an Egyptologist from the University of California, San Diego, Rovik, Patricia from the journal in Mediterranean Archeology unveils the origins of Neith and Athena from Libya as a goddess whose origins are of Libya [2]
1987 : the official Catalogue of the Museum of Cairo [3] also shows that the Delta in page 42 included Libya and hence Neith the Saite Deity is considered Libyan in that regard.
1945: The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland describes neith as the "Libyan Delta Goddess"[4]
2011:this publication in the famous Ancient Egypt Magazine, 2011, Vol 11, Issue 6, p30 quotes Five Egyptian goddesses: their possible beginnings, actions, and relationships in the third millennium BCE by Susan Hollis [5] mentions the Libyan Origins of this deity
1945 :"at Esna he had as consort the great Libyan goddess, Neith: a close likeness between Egyptians and Libyans"[6]
2016: "There seems little reason to doubt that Neith was the same deity as the Libyan goddess whom Herodotus equates with Athene; and likely the same deity as Tanit who would become the principal goddess in later Carthage."[7] - University of Manchester
here you note that the consideration of Neith as Libyan goddess is consistent throughout the 20th and 21st century, whether it is the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland publishing this in 1945, the Official Catalogue of Museum of Cairo in Egypt in 1987 or even *UNESCO* and the *Journal in Mediterranean Archeology* today. hereby confirming that Neith being considered Libyan isn't new age revisionism, but an already well-established concept backed up by high trust, high research institutes in each era. It is without doubt that modern scholars consider Neith as Libyan.Potymkin (talk) 14:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Barbara S. Lesko in The Great Goddesses of Egypt, University of Oklahoma Press, 1999 (p. 47): "Hermann Kees describes the northwestern part of the delta as being inhabited primarily by Libyans and points out that during the Old Kingdom Neith was characterized by Egyptians as Neith from Libya, 'as if she was the chieftainess of the neighboring people with whom the inhabitants of the Nile valley were at all times at war.' Other Egyptologists dispute this connection, however, and the first appearance of Neith is purely Egyptian."
Richard H. Wilkinson in The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, Thames & Hudson, 2003 (p. 157): "Although she was sometimes called 'Neith of Libya', this reference may simply refer to the proximity of the Libyan region to the goddess's chief province in the western Delta." A. Parrot (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
hello @Robert McClenon , sorry for being inactive for a while I was a little busy, I would like to say that I am happy with @BrocadeRiverPoems 's final revision on the Neith page, he has demonstrated excellent ability to moderate in between. his statement that Neith is worshipped by both egyptians and Libyans without infringing on either sources or relevence of the publications is excellent. this would put the matter at rest. Please consult with the other side of the debate agrees or disagrees with the final revision to see if the matter could be put to rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Potymkin (talk • contribs) 21:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
There are not sources that call her Libyan. As User:BrocadeRiverPoems has demonstrated extensively on the talk page, there are sources that say she may have originated among Libyans in prehistoric times, and there are sources that say Libyans who lived in Egypt worshipped her in historic times. This is an important distinction: ancient polytheists worshipped whichever deity was relevant to them. Because polytheistic deities were closely tied to places (they were effectively considered to be members of the community that worshipped them), people who settled in a place would adopt the deities of that community, whether or not their ancestors had any connection to that deity. Calling Neith "Libyan" because some Libyan groups who settled around Sais worshipped her would be a bit like calling Set a Canaanite god because the Hyksos who settled at Avaris worshipped him, or calling Sobek a Greek god because the Greek colonists at Karanis worshipped him.
I'm more interested in the possibility that — setting aside the question of how she originated — Neith was worshipped in historic times by Libyans in Libya, i.e., the Western Desert. If sources say that she was, then I would be happy to describe Neith as an "Egyptian and Libyan goddess". But the sources Potymkin has produced don't seem to say that. A. Parrot (talk) 08:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
I accept the rules. One thing I have learned in reading the multitude of sources provided on the matter is that there seems to be a confusion in what some of the sources are saying. For instance, one source speaks of a possible connection of this rainsender of the Auseans, and the Dea Coelestis of the Libyans in general, with a goddess of the western Egyptian Delta when discussing similarities between deities, specifically the similarities between Athena, Tanit and Neith, with Tanit being a Libyan Goddess, and thus a possible connection. The implication here is that Athena is also potentially derived from this Libyan Goddess, do we now go and refer to Athena as an ancient Libyan Goddess as well? A Greco-North-African Deity?
There seems to be some matter of debate in the scholarship itself about the theory that Neith originated from the Libyans as most sources that I've seen describe the theory as contested or lacking in evidence. Most, if not all, of the reliable sources which are provided to say Neith is of Libyan origin note that it is a theory and one which is not universally agreed upon.
Describing Neith as a North African deity is marginally acceptable, but I fear that this change is giving undue weight to what is appearing more and more like a WP:FRINGETHEORY.
I also wonder is it necessary to even declare Neith "of Egyptian origin" or "of Libyan origin" and why is it not acceptable to simply describe her as I have presently done so in the lead? That Neith is a Goddess that was worshipped by ancient Egyptians and Libyans? It is factually true and represented in the sources. Other articles such as Lamia stipulate what mythology they originated in, but do not declare an originating ethnic/national group, it focuses instead on the mythology, Tinjis says berber and greek mythology, Amunet, Hathor and Anput all just say "in ancient Egyptian Religion..." without saying specifically where it originated from. Likewise, Bastet uses the language a goddess of ancient Egyptian religion possibly of Nubian origin
I would propose as an alternative we adopt some of the language of the Bastet article, and write instead that Neith is:
This would represent that Neith's status in the Egyptian religion and note that there is a possible Libyan origin. This seems to be perfectly neutral language that provides due weight to both claims. This, to me, feels like a reasonable compromise. Brocade River Poems 11:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
As of present, I have no further questions or anything to provide for discussion. I shall wait and see if the other editor endorses the compromise. --Brocade River Poems 21:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
"…goddess in ancient Egyptian religion, possibly of Libyan origin" is fine by me. A. Parrot (talk) 04:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
——成功解決爭議。原因請見留言。